36 replies to this topic

[i7Grendel]

The thing is: everything needs a beginning. The Universe began with a bang (a Big Bang, actually). The tree fell because it was blown over by the wind. The wind blowed because pressure zones moved. Etcetera. I'm not a believer, so I don't know what kind of being a god is, but if it thinks and behaves in any way like a human, it must have come to being once. Hassan said earlier "the creator isn't created himself, because it is the creator" (more or less). But that's just thinking in circles. The creator is the creator because it is the creator.

Because the Creator told us He sent his message to mankind, to offer them guidance My religion gives me proof for its authenticity, which in turn confirms my belief that it is from the Creator.

What proof? What message? A story written by a "prophet" who happened to be forging an empire at the same time?* Bible, Quran, it's all the same. They call it the book of God, but like all books, it's written by men.

*= Fact: Religions work great to keep totalitarian regimes in place. "If you stay calm and don't rise up against your harsh leader, you will be with God after you die! If not, you will be doomed for all eternity!" This fear is key to preserving an otherwise clearly unsuccessful political situation. The Islam is the perfect example: The one who made it up, he who called himself "Prophet of the Islam, Prophet of Allah", was building the base of a huge empire. He made up the Islam to tightly weave all the small tribes together. Catholicism worked the same way in the Middle Ages. Only after "scientists" of the time started to look to the old, successful civilizations in stead of the Bible, free will and technological development flourished.

[Brother Hassan]

I know I'm making a small and arbitrary point, but there is a difference between 'quantifiable' and 'limited'. Just because something can be counted does not mean there is only a certain amount to count.

Quantifiable means according to the Wikitionary "Something that can be quantified; a measurable." You cannot measure something that has no limits.

The concept (for want of a better word) of God or any god/deity/supreme power/etc is only a function of faith, or belief in said god. Faith is very difficult to quantify, as it does not provide anything other than a feeling of wellbeing, companionship or guidance and is almost entirely self-sustaining. Most people have a faith in a situation where answers are not readily available, and this faith can (often vaguely, but almost always satisfyingly) explain or give reason to the nature of a given circumstance.

Your argument holds weight if you were talking to a Christian. In Islam, God's function is not of a deity that exists to be worshiped. We see God as the cause & sustainer of existence. Even if nothing worshiped him, it would not lessen his majesty.

At least, this is the modern faith, where science and religion are often at loggerheads. As a result, the above argument is constantly wheeled out and whored to suit anybody's narrow scientific view. This is wrong - the foundation of the scientific method is to observe with an open mind, without prejudice or predilection (I should point out that I am of the scientific stance, but am outlining this anyway).

Science & faith are not at loggerheads. Science contradicts false notions of God. The open minded approach is encouraged by Islam. My religion does not ask for a blind leap of faith rather it gives rational arguments to support its claims.

There have been a few posts both ways, regarding the ubiquitous 'impossible infinite chain' argument, in an effort to both prove and disprove the existence of a god and of the big bang. Unfortunately, it is not conclusive in either case: if this first instant - for whichever reason - initiated the universe, then by definition it also marks the beginning of time, which is a finite and impassable boundary. At least, with our technology and wisdom.

Of course time is finite. God is free of time & space in Islam.

This leads to another point. If we do, somehow, cross the threshold of time, will the findings make a difference? Even if we found out the cause of the birth of the universe, how do we understand whether or not it was determined by a Creator? All we would find is the actual physical incident. Let me clarify with a simple analogy: if we stamp on an anthill, the ants know that the anthill was flattened by a large object coming from above, the impact of which caused it's collapse. They will not understand that we meant to do it, only that it happened.

The Birth of the universe itself is testament to the existence of God. To work with your example, the ants saw a big show coming and destroying the anthill. Now it is only logical to believe that their must be someone who wears a large shoe. Similarly, the universe is created & it is only logical to believe in a Creator.

A falling tree has a physical (thus quantifiable?) effect on it's surroundings. What physical, demonstrable effect does a god have?

Again, your looking at God from a perspective of faith alone. God is bigger than that. He is the source of existence. The sun revolves because of God's will. Gravity functions with Gods will e.t.c

[Krydos]

I'll be completely honest: I didn't really read any of the above; just skimmed through some of it.

Here is my contribution:

William James, father of American psychology, tells of meeting an old lady who told him the Earth rested on the back of a huge turtle. "But, my dear lady", Professor James asked, as politely as possible, "what holds up the turtle?" "Ah", she said, "that's easy. He is standing on the back of another turtle." "Oh, I see", said Professor James, still being polite. "But would you be so good as to tell me what holds up the second turtle?" "It's no use, Professor", said the old lady, realizing he was trying to lead her into a logical trap. "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!"

So, in conclusion: IT'S TURTLES, ALL THE WAY DOWN!!! Amen.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down

[Brother Hassan]

I'll be completely honest: I didn't really read any of the above; just skimmed through some of it.

Here is my contribution:

William James, father of American psychology, tells of meeting an old lady who told him the Earth rested on the back of a huge turtle. "But, my dear lady", Professor James asked, as politely as possible, "what holds up the turtle?" "Ah", she said, "that's easy. He is standing on the back of another turtle." "Oh, I see", said Professor James, still being polite. "But would you be so good as to tell me what holds up the second turtle?" "It's no use, Professor", said the old lady, realizing he was trying to lead her into a logical trap. "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!"

So, in conclusion: IT'S TURTLES, ALL THE WAY DOWN!!! Amen.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down

lol
The problem with "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!", is that who made the first turtle. If there is no first turtle than how can we exist. If to reach the first turtle you need an infinite amount of time, than to reach the present state you would also need an infinite amount of time. Meaning that we cannot exist

[tsumekiri]

I'll be completely honest: I didn't really read any of the above; just skimmed through some of it.

Here is my contribution:

William James, father of American psychology, tells of meeting an old lady who told him the Earth rested on the back of a huge turtle. "But, my dear lady", Professor James asked, as politely as possible, "what holds up the turtle?" "Ah", she said, "that's easy. He is standing on the back of another turtle." "Oh, I see", said Professor James, still being polite. "But would you be so good as to tell me what holds up the second turtle?" "It's no use, Professor", said the old lady, realizing he was trying to lead her into a logical trap. "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!"

So, in conclusion: IT'S TURTLES, ALL THE WAY DOWN!!! Amen.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down

lol
The problem with "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!", is that who made the first turtle. If there is no first turtle than how can we exist. If to reach the first turtle you need an infinite amount of time, than to reach the present state you would also need an infinite amount of time. Meaning that we cannot exist

Universe

(a) created by

Entity 1

( created by

Entity 2

© created by

Entity 3

(d) created by

Entity 4

(e) created by

Entity 5

... etc. etc. ad infinitum.


Theists choose cut the line at point (

I choose to cut the line at point (a)

[i7Grendel]

Ok, I pretty much conclude that at the beginning of time, there was something which dictated the laws of nature and set the big bang in motion. Something both brief and infinite, something incomprehensible by the human mind. But is this the creator? Saying that means there would only be one thing (or being, actually) that caused everything. But I can't conclude that. Something as powerful as "The Cause" cannot be understood. People called it "God", hoping it would bring them understanding. But it doesn't accommodate the entire concept.

I did my homework and looked up the exact definition of Allah (which was Hassan's creator all along), and Allah is said to be an infinite and incomprehensible factor. The thing with Allah is: he judges. This means he is sentient, and therefore humanlike, meaning Allah is quantifiable. So again, Allah cannot be "The Cause".

[AffrontedFetus]

Of course there was a "Creator." What is the Creator, though? Why does it have to be a God or deity? Why can't the Big Bang which created the Universe be that origin that water needs to exist? We still have a Creator just because it doesn't have a mind or consciousness.

Seeing how pointless existence is (the monotonous daily chores of waking up, eating, working for food and shelter and then sleeping until tomorrow) its no wonder why religion exists. We need something to believe in. To make us feel like there is a reason to our continued existence. Religion fills this hole. We feel like there is a bigger picture in which we are needed.

[claus]

The Creator had a master-tape - God? Never met the fellow, but some swear. Isn't it, as in The meaning of life: 42? Life is, what you make of it, thus, God is, what you believe, it is. Call it Allah, Jesus, Buddha, whatever - just don't bite off my Holy Banana. Gosh, all this stuff is so bloody ridiculous. Did any of you folks ever actually read the Bible, Coran, or any book at all for that matter? If you care for Philosophy, try Kant, Rousseau, or Horace, to get a head-start. You may want to switch over to Nitzsche for a more cynical point of view. Oops, did I just spill some Latin into your face? omnibus ex nihilo ducendis sufficit unum.

[Byron]

Did any of you folks ever actually read the Bible, Coran, or any book at all for that matter?

That remark was really uncalled for. If you don't refrain from making these smart remarks in your post, I will ban you from posting. You seem to be a pretty intelligent person but you lack the ability to show respect to fellow posters. And yes I have read my bible more than once and continue to read it every day.

[claus]

Goof grief, and so soft-skinned are we. Amazing, what a simple statement can trigger. What was that word, inflam... Well, go ahead and just delete the post then. Never meant to offend anybody, but true it is, not quite my level.

[Byron]

Goof grief, and so soft-skinned are we. Amazing, what a simple statement can trigger. What was that word, inflam... Well, go ahead and just delete the post then. Never meant to offend anybody, but true it is, not quite my level.

It had nothing to do with being soft-skinned. You insinuated that everybody in this thread was so stupid, that how could they have possibly even read a book, much less any of the books that were mentioned. Let's not make a big discussion about this. Just try and show a little more respect from now on, ok!

[oTc Sales & Marketing]

Personally I believe that there is a God, not necessarily a being, but an ultimate power. However, i also believe that religion is simply a concept or a tool. Like any tool, it can be used both for right and wrong. History shows, it can be used for power. However, we also see the goodness it can bring out in people.

As for the "Creator". Does it have to be something of intelligence, wisdom or consciousness? It could (for all we know with OUR limitations) be one simple unifying element that triggered a chain reaction or cycle that has brought us to the present.

I am a firm believer in science. The big bang, i believe, is the creator of our universe, but i do believe there was existence before then. I believe that there is a creator for the big bang, not a God or a figure of intelligence, but a reaction of the combination of the right circumstance and the right ingredients.

Not everything happens with motive or for a reason. Lets be honest, sometimes, things just happen. Never the less, it always results in a REaction.

[i7Grendel]

omnibus ex nihilo ducendis sufficit unum.

all out of nothing is enough for one to lead a

I didn't get the point of that bit of Latin.

Anyway, I like the occasional slap to the face to make me see where I stand. Still, others may not share my opinion so if you don't belief what is being said here, then don't read it. Like byron said, no need to incinerate everyone.

[Brother Hassan]

I did my homework and looked up the exact definition of Allah (which was Hassan's creator all along), and Allah is said to be an infinite and incomprehensible factor. The thing with Allah is: he judges. This means he is sentient, and therefore humanlike, meaning Allah is quantifiable. So again, Allah cannot be "The Cause".

Allah is unique & unlike anything else in Islamic thought. This is one of the fundamentals of Aqedah ( Islamic creed ). When Allah judges, his method of judgment is unlike anything else.

The Creator had a master-tape - God? Never met the fellow, but some swear. Isn't it, as in The meaning of life: 42? Life is, what you make of it, thus, God is, what you believe, it is. Call it Allah, Jesus, Buddha, whatever - just don't bite off my Holy Banana. Gosh, all this stuff is so bloody ridiculous. Did any of you folks ever actually read the Bible, Coran, or any book at all for that matter? If you care for Philosophy, try Kant, Rousseau, or Horace, to get a head-start. You may want to switch over to Nitzsche for a more cynical point of view. Oops, did I just spill some Latin into your face? omnibus ex nihilo ducendis sufficit unum.

Some atheists can really be amusing
Since you've contributed nothing solid to the discussion, I can't refute anything ...
Alas ...

[hdhdhd]

I believe that believing that God is infinitely loving is saner than thinking God may be mean because religion makes life better unless it becomes your life